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Piercing Serenity
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Posted - 2013.07.24 10:23:00 -
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Hey everyone,
The graph detailing the increase in kills for the Flaylock Pistol in this dev blog got me interested in looking at balance in my weapon of choice, the Assault Rifle. While I don't think that the Assault Rifle in its entirety is flawed, I think that a graph detailing which type of assault rifle was used most often would be highly skewed in favor of the Basic Assault rifle. Just as CCP (and the community) wants to avoid one weapon to dominate the battlefield, so to should we avoid one weapon variety dominating an entire branch of weapons.
I'll use numbers in this post, but they are more illustrative of a point then they are concrete values. However, all the numbers I looked at came from this site. (I know its old, but it's the only comprehensive list I could find.) Values for weapons are: Militia/Standard/Advanced/Proto
Damage/DPS (From Least to Greatest):
- Standard: 25 / 28 / 31 / 34 --> +3 Damage per level. Moderate nerf across tiers. No change at Proto - Burst: 28 / 30 / 33 / 40 --> +2, 3, 6 (respectively) per level. Moderate buff across tiers - Breach: 39 / 43 / 49 / 56 --> +4, 6, 9 (respectively) per level. Minor nerf across tiers, no change at Proto - Tactical: 48 / 58 / 68 / 78 --> +10 (respectively) per level. Major nerf across lower tiers, no change at Proto.
I think this damage progression illustrates the changes I want to see in the feel and perception of the weapon class. First, you'll notice that all weapons have a big jump between their Militia and Proto grades. I kept proto values the same (save the standard AR), and simply stretched the values going down. I think this I think this gives the feel of really unlocking something new and stronger. Currently, the Exile is popular because in most cases the TTK between it and the Duvolle is not very noticeable. The current damage on a Duvolle is 34.1 giving the I think this is okay.
Secondly, In the name of rewarding tactical play and earning more skillful kills, the standard AR is the weakest weapon, both in damage an progression. I think players should be rewarded more - as far as damage as concerned - by picking weapons that require them to place their shots, and this break down give players greater rewards for working with more difficult weapons. The most standard option of the most standard weapon should not be the most exciting.
RPM (From Least to Greatest):
- Tactical: 450 / 470 / 490 / 510 or 510 across tiers - Burst: 725 / 740 / 750 / 760 or 760 across tiers - Standard: 760 / 770 / 780 / 800 or 800 across tiers - Breach: 890 / 910 / 920 / 930 or 930 across tiers
Remember: none of these numbers really matter.
I haven't done any DPS calculations to see how the numbers check out against other weapons. It's just to illustrate the idea that TACs should be shooting the slowest, and that Breach weapons should be hosing opponents down in CQC.
I was conflicted when I thought about these numbers. In essence, I gave Burst AR the values of a Standard AR, gave the Breach the values of the Burst AR, slightly increased the RPM of the TAR, and dramatically increased the damage of the Breach. My thinking was that the TAR can stand to shoot a bit faster (From what I hear from the few people who use the weapon in the community) while still being balance. My suggestions give the Burst more damage than the AR, so its fire rate should be noticeably different. The Standard AR has enough RPM so that it should be giving players a lot of kick when they try to open it up. The Breach AR is now a high powered SMG, a role which I think it should fill.
Below the dotted line are some other changes i thought of. These changes are more or less common place, so I wanted to give people the option not to read a wall of text. These are just some thoughts to add some diversity to this class of weapons too. Tell me what you think.
Dispersion / Long Range Accuracy(From Least to Greatest): - Breach - Standard - Burst - Tactical
Hip fire / Short Range Accuracy (From Least to Greatest): - Tactical - Burst - Standard - Breach
For those who dislike the idea of a weapon having a cone of dispersion, hip fire accuracy could just be determining how strong the autoaim system corrects a player's input at certain values. If everything worked out, it would mean that a breach would "snap" to a target directly in front of a player, while the TAC would have little to no auto aim support. i think that would reward people who can still use the TAC up close while providing the Breach with more benefits.
Recoil Per Shot (From Least to Greatest): - Standard - Breach - Burst - Tactical
Recoil over time (From Least to Greatest) - Tactical* - Burst* - Breach - Standard
Scope Fidelity (From Least to Greatest) - Breach - Standard - Burst - Tactical
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Posted - 2013.07.24 10:28:00 -
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Something I forgot to add:
SP Re-balancing:
I think that each branch of the AR deserves its own skill branch, with each variation being a 1x or 2x Skill. Players creating an Assault Character can have one level automatically unlocked across all weapon varieties, but should pump some SP into a weapon of their choice to truly own it.
Also
~~~~~~Reserved for future use |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 10:31:00 -
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xSir Campsalotx wrote:Interesting ideas my guess is the majority of the populous will outright throw out this idea due to its popularity and then proceed to insult you. Do like the breach idea specifically but does not fall in line with other breach weapons.
That's fair. I haven't used any other weapon but the AR since I started playing DUST, so i don't have any knowledge to fall back on. Any suggestions? |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 10:40:00 -
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xSir Campsalotx wrote:Haha I'd love to say anything to balance the assualt rifle but were a minority. The breach variant are high damage low rof and are in need of work, AR side. The ar users make this claim often. I would say simply up the damage on breach halfway between its current stats and the tac damage. Adding recoil to this gun would indeed make it a skilled weapon, but any increase would send the community into a frenzy, even though i think its needed.Welcome to dust btw.
I think I could agree with a bit more recoil. I would want the skill to come from surviving an up close encounter more than fighting with the recoil on the gun. Using the breach means that you would get getting up close to HMGs, MDs, FL, and grenades. I think that's enough pressure.
And I've been here for a long time. Over a year now. I just don't really post unless I have something I think is worth the community's and/or Dev's attention. |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 10:59:00 -
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@RydogV: I included militia values so that there was a noticeable progression between the beginning and end point for each weapon. I think that proto weapons should feel like a big leap from the standard grade. This leads me into Sir Campsalot's post
@Sir Campsalot: You're right. These changes have more of an RPG feel to them. Maybe they should be held off until better match making is in place? Would you be okay with these values if people could choose who they got in to a fight with? |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 11:44:00 -
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@Beren Hurin: That could be true, but I have no idea if and or when it'll go through. I'm making this thread as if things were going to stay the same for the next couple of months.
Leave the debate of how skilled the people using ARs are in pub matches, are there any other suggestions to get more people to use the other branches of the AR tree? |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 12:16:00 -
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trying to keep this thread up for more feedback
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Posted - 2013.07.24 12:40:00 -
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semperfi1999 wrote:TBH there used to be a greater difference between standard - proto weaponry/suits/etc....CCP decided that they wanted only small differences between the standard and proto gears. So with that philosophy in mind this will never be done.
Yeah, I remember. And I remember the long discussion about the pros and cons of shrinking the gaps between weapons. I know that this thread could be off base or flat out ignored. I'm just taking a shot at trying to get some more diversity on the field, because there is none in respect to ARs. If you could change anything, what would it be?
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Posted - 2013.07.24 13:06:00 -
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Shion Typhon wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:
I think this damage progression illustrates the changes I want to see in the feel and perception of the weapon class. First, you'll notice that all weapons have a big jump between their Militia and Proto grades. I kept proto values the same (save the standard AR), and simply stretched the values going down. I think this I think this gives the feel of really unlocking something new and stronger. Currently, the Exile is popular because in most cases the TTK between it and the Duvolle is not very noticeable. The current damage on a Duvolle is 34.1 giving the I think this is okay.
I especially like this bit where you disguise making the gap between newbies and proto-users even greater, seem like you're doing them a favour "feel like they are unlocking something". Lulz.
If it comes off as a ploy or a trick, its not supposed to. Part of the reason that there was so little diversity between ARs in the same branch being used was being there wasn't really a point. Before PC was released, you would only run a Duvolle if you wanted to show off, because an Exile could do more or less the same thing. For people already skilled into the weapon, things don't change much, if it all. For new players, larger spacing could go along with the new match making system and let younger players feel like they are making strides.
The point of a video game is to have fun, and in my case, I have more fun if I feel like I'm making noticeable improvements wherever I put my time. If I can look back and say: "I played for x days/weeks and finally unlocked a proto AR" and feel like the change is significant, I'll be happy.
I agree that with the numbers/examples I used, it is more of an MMO consideration than an FPS one. And if there anyone else has some more precise suggestions or tweaks to what we have here, just comment so we can add some diversity. |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 13:26:00 -
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Thank you, I edited the second post in the thread to include the wiki, and I'll review the numbers I used and change accordingly |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 13:52:00 -
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another bump to get some more feedback |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 14:17:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:What I would have loved to see was a corresponding graph of AR kills superimposed over the flaylock graph.
Stats can be tricky that way and CCP didnt show a full picture, only what they wanted to "prove" their point.
Yes I go into matches with many flaylocks but more times than not only some players have them and other players have ar's snipers, mass drivers since their buff and scramblers. You see a few tacs still and some shotties. One laser and no plasma cannons.
Thats what I have seen over the past weeks and I play mostly every day.
Added your suggestion to OP. Thanks |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 14:39:00 -
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Revelations 514 wrote:More recoil for std AR. More dispersion for Breach AR. called keeping them in their niche
okay, I'll add the suggestions. Would you do anything with the RoF of these two weapons? Do you think that these two changes would be enough? personally, I'd use the breach even less than I do now (if that were possible) if it had more dispersion, unless it was some type of dramatic falloff outside of the weapon's optimal range. I can definitely agree with a recoil bump for the STD AR though. |
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Posted - 2013.07.24 17:07:00 -
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@Scheneighnay McBob: Noted. Throwing it in the feedback box now
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Posted - 2013.07.25 00:11:00 -
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Ranger SnakeBlood wrote:Only thing that is wrong with standard AR is the clustering of hip fire is too tight, i know alot of people may see a larger cone as a buff to the weapon for CQC but what is happening now is the AR is almost able to put like 80% of its damage on a target up close while moving full speed due to the clustering or the cone of fire being small, this is the main reason it can out perform the SMG and HMG if the user is good at shooting they can put more bullets on target on other hand the SMG and HMG has a large cone of fire therefore more shots miss no matter how accuracy the user is.
This dispersion of bullets should be made wider as you move also, its possible that you can move a little to fast while aiming down sights a little too quick while having no effect on you weapon
As for the recoil thing to add this would put the weapon so out of balance that it would need sizable buff to damage so that it can kill people quickly enough so you dont have to re align about 7 times, also as far as iam concerned the weapon is fine at most ranges except close is a bit too effective it is also perhaps a little weak at medium pushing long range around 70m but i wright that off to being a plasma weapon and rail and projectile variants will likely be better over longer ranges.
This is coming from someone who uses AR almost exclusively.
Okay. Which weapons should get the dispersion? Just Standard ARs or the whole class of weapons. Would you give all weapons a damage buff? And by how much? Use the values I have on the first page if you can, so I can update them for the rest of the community |
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Posted - 2013.07.25 05:07:00 -
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Bumping for feedback |
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Posted - 2013.07.25 13:32:00 -
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Shadow of War88 wrote:1 flaw, u cant have tac ar have most recoil per shot if its a single shot weapon....u need to lower recoil or increase first shot recoil multiplier for standard AR. Burst AR n Tac AR should also get less damage drop off over distance in order to enphesise its long range role
I hear what you're saying. I'm not sure if the TAC should be extremely accurate with a low rate of fire, or have high recoil with a higher rate of fire. I'll add the increased first shot multiplier to the suggestions board though, and I think longer optimal ranges for tac and Burst ARs to emphasize their range (or a more gradual decrease) would work well. Nice work. |
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Posted - 2013.07.25 13:51:00 -
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bumping for more feedback |
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Posted - 2013.07.25 14:29:00 -
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King Kobrah wrote:breach AR is useless, has the lowest DPS of any of the assault rifles and the worst range to boot and is completely outperformed by the regular AR in all facets burst AR is not worth using at all, it needs to be changed back to the 7 round burst it used to be so it's viable again. regular AR is actually balanced but they're going to nerf range on it when the other AR types are released loltacAR is also useless with joke DPS and recoil
Concerning the TAC, what would you change about it specifically? I'll add your other suggestions to the board
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Posted - 2013.07.25 23:04:00 -
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Thanks for the feedback. The front page has been updated.
Bumping for more feedback
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Posted - 2013.07.25 23:38:00 -
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Bump |
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Posted - 2013.07.26 00:26:00 -
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Bump |
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Posted - 2013.07.26 02:49:00 -
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Ideas from "Feedback/Discussion" section added |
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Posted - 2013.07.26 07:55:00 -
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@Micheal: I'm not trying to do anything but get some more variety on the field. The only AR used right now is the standard one. If you have any suggestions on things we should NOT change, throw them in here. That'll give us a better picture to work with. |
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Posted - 2013.07.27 05:31:00 -
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Bump for feedback
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